Saturday, February 4, 2012

Dear Post-Modernist



You are entitled to your opinion, and I don't want to begrudge you that. But for me to agree to your terms of dialogue - to leave behind the foundations of my thinking - would be to concede the argument. Words by themselves do not have meaning, it is the speaker who places meaning on the words, but in order for us to discuss anything there has to be mutually agreed upon definitions for those words. This does not have to be spouting sources and textbook definitions at each other, but we should not ignore those sources or those definitions which have influenced our definitions of the concepts we discuss.

I think we are both on a search for meaning
, but I don't think your definition of meaning is the same as mine; however, I'm glad you stated it - that meaning is "what is" - because that gets us somewhere. Once we have our terms defined, we can then move to the crux of the argument. The definition of meaning I would use would E. D. Hirsch's definition, that meaning is the message the author intended. And by intention I would take the Aristotelian definition that intention is mental states, like thoughts or feelings, that are of or about things in reality. In a way this is similar to your definition for assumption - our made up individual perception of reality - but I feel that you are creating a rift between reality and the one perceiving reality; whereas my view joins reality to meaning by allowing the one perceiving reality to really see reality, not just his version of it. I fear that you have fallen into the phenomenological trap of Martin Heidegger, who thought that we interpret everything and never really see anything. The only escape from this is to have all knowledge and all wisdom and all power but since we don't, he argued, we can never really know or perceive anything; post-modern philosophers work from this premis. My hope is that we, as believers in a transcendent Creator God, can see past this trick since we do know One who does know everything, and since He is not only transcendent but also personal, He has given us His word that the creation we perceive is real, we can then base our "assumptions" as you like to call them, or what Alvin Plantinga might call our popular basic beliefs, our most fundamental presuppositions, squarely on God. Of course our perception is limited due to our finiteness, but God's percpective is perfect because of His infiniteness and He provides the link between our senses and reality by giving us His word. Because all of us have presuppositions, we must recognize them, and the most fundamental of all of them is the existence of God. Once that belief is recognized - not necessarily proved, but recognized - then things start making sense. Without that belief, nothing makes sense. This is not existentialism any more than it is empiricism, rather this is the view of reality that I believe the Bible presents. The Word of God does not try to argue for its validity based on objective laws of logic and truth, because non exist, that is, laws about the way the universe is run are not autonomous, they need something to rest on, and like everything else in the Universe, they rest on God. That is not to say that they are a part of God, but that God provides that basis for truth and reality.
As far as my doctrine goes, I hold to no creeds but the written word of God. There we meet God and He reveals Himself to us, our job is to listen, then to tremble at His word, then to believe and obey His word because it is the only sure word we have in our broken world.

8 comments:

  1. What's with the pics?

    Anyway, I will concede that God provides the basis for truth and reality, for the sake of argument. With this conceded, on what basis do you believe other faiths can be discredited? Especially when it comes to their holy books?

    Muslims, Jews, Mormans, Buddhists can all make similarly structured arguments for the nature of God, and how he has chosen to reveal himself to humans. And with your logic, there is no basis to reject them but with notions of personal revelation. You will say your personal revelation is God's, and theirs is not. They will say the opposite. What then? Insert "God's word" for personal revelations. The argument is exactly the same.

    I believe the crux of the argument in certainly the nature of truth found in the Bible. Sadly, I think the Bible, when viewed from your fundamental viewpoint, must disregarded as man's good intentions (at best) and bad intentions (at worst).

    Why must I believe the Christian Scripture is true, in the sense you claim, to discover truth? And on what basis do you claim it is true? I don't think you have produced any answers that adequately defend your claims. In fact, it seems you've provided none at all. The purpose of your site is to play offense, but you refuse to even play defense, as it would "concede the point." Babes will drink their mothers milk, but men grow to eat and drink solid food. Grow. God will not forsake you, even if you break down your thought process. It will reveal him, not tear him apart.

    Trooper



    You can continue to post absurdly stereotypical and half thought out arguments, I think neither honors God or does service to a sincere Christ follower.

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    Replies
    1. Dear Trooper,
      I forgive your harshness, I have said a lot worse. And just for the record, I have some good friends that dress like that because I used to dress like that and think like a post-modernist. I think my stance is uniquily Christian because when it is applied to reality it works. If I used the same argument to defend Zen Buddism I would quickly notice that all things are not one, and that no matter how much I tried to transcend it, real suffering does exist. Presupposing God exists and that the Bible is His word is the only way to make sense out of reality. The religions are like maps to life. Let's say you find a stack of maps and have to figure out which one matches the location you are at, the way of determining which one is correct is to use a compass, examine your terrain and try the map out. While all the maps may have some features that look similar, you will want to use the most accurate one. The Bible is that accurate map, it is the only one that truly fits reality.

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    2. You cannot just SAY that the Christian God and the Christian Bible is the only way to make sense out of reality, and expect it to be received as truth by critical minds. ESPECIALLY when your site strives to be apologetic.

      You continue, over and over again, to apply critical logic to discredit other faiths and thought systems. However, you refuse to apply this same critical eye to your faith, and refuse the legitimacy of the logic when it applies to your own. What sort of defense is that? Do you really think this is an honest evaluation of your own faith?

      You claim:"If I used the same argument to defend Zen Buddism I would quickly notice that all things are not one, and that no matter how much I tried to transcend it, real suffering does exist."

      I disagree. Not that you are in no position to make this comparison fairly. I don't know a ton about Buddhism in the generic sense. But I imagine that a well intentioned Buddhist, using a justification similar to yours, could say he simply maintains the necessary assumption that all things are one. He may even be able to justify it based on his observations and logical progression. After all, It is the only way for him to make sense of his world. That is his God, if you will. I anticipate a response from you about the specifics of the Buddhist faith, but that is not what this conversation is or should be about. It's about critical thinking and sound defense.

      I find it interesting that you claim that you know your map is the one that only truly fits reality. YOU say YOU examine YOUR terrain, maybe even a compass and determine this. Your philosophy is much more "post-modern" than you think (don't worry, it's just a term). Your eyes must see the compass. You must analyze the data. You must walk the distance. This does not deny the map, does not deny the compass, does not deny terrain, and does not deny the creator of all three. Actually, it might actually be the first step to discovering and understanding those things. You deny this, flat and simple.

      Trooper

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    3. Dear Trooper,
      What I am trying to do with my ontological understanding of the world is to wed presuppositionalism to foundationalism. The reason I have to pressupose God's existence before I jump into the realm of logic and analysis is that logic needs a grounding. Practically and theoretically we all know that logic works, but then we have to ask why it works. The only coherent answer is God's existence. That may not sit well with you, but I might then challenge you that you are more influenced by enlightenment rationalism than you might like to admit. The problem with enlightenment rationalism and with romanticism (which post-modernity is the child of) is that they both base all of their presuppositions on man, I am trying to base all of my presuppositions on God. That may seem awkward, but it is what the Bible is aking us to do.

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    4. It does seem a little awkward, but I don't really have a problem with it.

      I take less of an issue with Christianity than I do those who strive to fit it into their logic, and defend (or refuse to in your case) it as such.

      I have no issue whatsoever with presupposing God. However, you take it a step further by presupposing that your bible is inspired, and infallible. Even if we were to admit that fact, we come to the question: is your interpretation infallible? What biases and "historical realities" must we consider or disregard for this sort of claim?

      For us to really continue the discussion, however, can you clarify which version (not translation) of the Bible you are talking about? EG. Catholic, NIV There seem to editions that include/leave out books/passages/words/etc. Which editions can we trust? And on what basis can we trust them?

      Trooper

      Trooper

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    5. Dear Trooper,
      I think you've nailed down my position pretty well, except that there may be one clarification. I first want to thank you for having this dialogue with me because it is helping me clarify my own thinking.
      My clarification would be why I accept the Bible as God's word as infallible. My first presupposition is God's existence, from that I am warranted in believing in certain self evident facts about the nature of reality, such as the exclusivity of truth, the rules of logic, the law of non-contradiction etc. But these tools alone will not bring me to belief in the infallible word of God, they can aid in that belief, but they cannot fully prove it. My second presupposition then is to take God's word as infallible, "hold on a minute!" you say, "that's an arbitrary leap, what are you some sort of existentialist?" No I assure I am not, but if I am to take the first presupposition, that God exists, I have to go all the way with it. Too many have paid lip service to that presupposition without being willing to go all the way with it. If I am to presuppose God's existence, I am certainly not going to be so arrogant and foolish as to think that I automatically know everything about Him and I definitely cannot put limits on what He can do, and since I have the ability to think reasonably and communicate my thoughts I have to at least assume that God has this same ability. Then I go looking for God's communication in the world around me, first I see nature, its beauty, but also its darkness. Since something in me tells me that is not the way it was suppose to be I take that as God's voice. I also have a sense that there is something beyond the grave, a future home in some sort of afterlife. I then examine my situation more closely and see that I care deeply, or at least know that I should care deeply, about those I have relationships with and since I have assumed God already, I take this as His intent. So what kind of a God would make a universe like this? I then examine the world religions, assuming that God has the ability to communicate. Each one claims to speak for God, but I am looking for the Creator God, who made all things beautiful and good, who cares the most about relationships and is sorry that things are they way they are. So when I search for this kind of a God, who will I find? And when I find His word, I am obligated to take it as authoritative. Since I have already accepted His existence and I am basing my ability to reason and believe on Him, not myself, to not accept God's word as infallible would be to undermine my original presupposition.

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    6. As I have tried to explain, and maybe done so unsuccessfully, is that I believe this second presupposition provides the link between our viewing of the world and ultimate reality. God is the only one that truly knows ultimate reality, but He has given us His word - in creation, in our hearts, and in the Bible - that what we are experiencing is real and we can trust our senses and rational. He has revealed that our decisions are real and that they have temporal and eternal consequences. So when we come to a text we evaluate it to the best of our abilities, but have to be faithful to the character of the communication. The Bible is a unique case, since it is God speaking, so we have to be carefully not to only think of it as an ancient text spoken to ancient people, it also is a trans-historical text that both the human author and the Divine author intended for a wider audience than just the people they lived among at a specific time in history. The self evident truths, which find their foundation in God's existence, can be employed to come to a conclusion about what the author (human and Divine) originally intended.
      The Bible that I then use would be the one that God's people have historically used, this is where those self evident truths come into play. I evaluate which copies were the closest to the originals and I accept those, the translation I then use would be a close rendering of those manuscripts. I believe the Masoretic text (OT) and the Received text (NT) are the most authentic, but I am not opposed to using the Majority text (NT). So the translation I most often use is the New King James Version, although I often consult other translations as well as the Greek texts.

      -Mike

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  2. I'd like for you to disregard that last part. I meant to delete it, as I felt it was not my place to say something like that. My apologies.

    Trooper

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